RAW DATA: Lisa Owen interviews a British foreign fighter

TV3/The Nation transcript: Lisa Owen interviews a British foreign fighter -- not fighting for ISIS but the Western-aligned Kurds. The man is called only "Alan" to protect his identity. Watch the interview here.

Alan: Our governments are sitting back and watching the Kurds die in their hundreds for a threat that is massive in our own countries. If the Kurds don’t win this battle, then we’re gonna have to fight ‘em in our own streets anyway sometime. So let’s beat them across there and do it now.

Lisa Owen: When you say you’re gonna have to fight them on your own streets, I mean, how far do you think it’ll spread? Will it get to New Zealand?

Of course it will. You just need to look at what’s going on in Paris. You just need to look at the 7/7 across in the UK. You need to look at 9/11. You know, you’ve got your own extremists across in Australia – just across the water from yourselves. This is a worldwide ideology. There’s no borders on this ideology.

When you say turn on the television, there are terrible things happening all over the world. So why did you choose to get involved in this fight?

Because this has been slowly building, slowly building. They’ve spread from Syria, and they’re taking over… Basically, they’re taking over Iraq. They’re wanting to build their caliphate. If they’re not stopped from building that across there, it makes them look stronger in the world’s eyes. They’re murdering men, women and children for their ideology across there. This is about humanity.

You’re heading back to the front line very soon. You must have seen what happened to James Foley and Kenji Goto, and what happened to the Jordanian pilot. Doesn’t that give you reason to sort of stop and think, “Maybe this is not a good idea for me to go back’?

Obviously I’ve had discussions with my own family on that, and all I’ll say is they won’t be taking me alive, and you’ll find it’s the same for most of the foreigners which are gonna go there and fight ‘em and take as many as them than to give up and surrender, because at the end of the day, I don’t want my family watching these videos, and I wouldn’t want to put my family. Other fighters have maybe got different things, but I think the majority will—We’re not gonna be taken alive by them.

So tell me in practical terms – when you decide to go in and do this, what do they want to know about you?

To be honest, they just see you as a volunteer. There is some groups across there that will just take anybody. To be honest, they’re… I haven’t got much time for what I’d call expat warriors. You’ve got your 21-year-old kids from UK, from wherever volunteer to fight, and they think, you know, at the end of the day, they think about reality checks and they just go home after a couple of weeks or whatever. Some people I know have lasted two days there, because suddenly it’s a wake-up call that this isn’t a game.

Well, you are a former soldier, aren’t you? So how different is what you are doing here and the resources and the situation you find yourself in compared to fighting in a Western military?

It’s completely different. You’re basically—It’s nowhere near the British, American, Canadian, NZ, Australia. You’re not even close than that. And you’re short of all the kit across there. You know, those— You’re short of ammunition.  Night vision equipment is a massive, massive one that you’re short of across there, and to be honest, a lot of people are dying because nobody’s willing to give night vision to the Kurdish – people that are actually doing the fighting just now. So, you know, you haven’t got the same supplies; you haven’t got the same equipment. It’s completely different. It’s like stepping back in time. However, this is when being a soldier comes into play, because your training does kick in.

So if there are New Zealanders sitting here, watching this at home, thinking, “I’d like to join that fight,” what would you say to them?

Stay at home.

Why?

Simple. Stay at home.

Why do you say that?

It’s different for me. I’m ex-military. You know, Paris isn’t that far from where I am. We’ve seen our 7/7. You know, we’ve had the Glasgow Airport attack. It’s more on our own doorstep at the minute. It will come to youse eventually, but I’m not gonna encourage anybody to go across there.

So is it a fight for people close to where this is happening?

For now, Europe’s very much the brunt of what’s— We’re kind of catching it across there. But it is a matter of time. If they beat the Kurds, for example, it’s gonna make them look a lot stronger. It actually increases their support. People in your own country definitely will have the sudden sympathy and think, “Well, actually, yes, this has to be the caliphate that they want,” and it’s gonna spread.

So tell me, what is the difference between you, say, who’s going there to fight with one group and other Westerners who are going to fight on the side of Islamic State? Because both sides are going there to fight a cause they believe in.

There’s… No, there’s… You can’t even call that. That’s like saying, oh, it’s OK for the Nazis to murder the Jews, for example. These people are complete and utter inhuman animals. They are murdering women, children, selling them into sex slaves, raping. You name it, they are doing it. The only thing they’re missing just now is the gas chambers, but I’m sure if they got their own way, that’d be next. Whereas the likes of me—

So what do you think of Westerners who are siding with them?

With them? Well, for one, they’ve given up all rights to be called—Say it’s somebody from example—Say somebody’s joined ISIS from, say, Britain, they’ve lost all right to be called British. Any Westerner that is caught across there should straight on away be put on… up in a court, on basically, crimes against humanity. Anybody that even wants to join ISIS is basically against humanity.

Well, the New Zealand government has passed legislation to clamp down on foreign fighters. They can confiscate passports of people who are fighting offshore and stop them travelling. In fact the government minister has said here that he doesn’t want any New Zealanders fighting in the Middle East, regardless of what side they’re on. They should stay at home, he says, and leave it to ordinary forces. Do you think that is the right approach?

No, I don’t, because I think a lot of the foreigners are highlighting that, quite frankly, our own governments are doing nothing. Your New Zealand government, your British – especially the Americans – they’d sooner sit back and watch how many thousands die. Look at the Yazidis on the mountain top, for example. Kurds died in their hundreds to save them while the West sat back and did nothing. A few bombing missions here and there. It’s a joke. So, you know, at the end of the day, the West just simply is not doing enough.  As for arming the Iraqi government—

Alan what does the West need to do, then, if it wants to, as Obama says, degrade and destroy IS? What does the West need to do?

Arm the Kurds, not the Iraq government. The Iraq government ran and left the Kurds. The Kurds, with a fraction of the weapons, held them off and are holding them off now – are taking ground back from them. What’s the Iraqi government done with all that billions of dollars of American gear and weapons? Sitting, guarding Baghdad.  They’re doing nothing. They abandoned… They abandoned the Kurds. But again, that’s where the politics comes into play. It’s time the Kurds were armed. Give them night vision; give ‘em ammo; give ‘em heavy weapons. They’re the ones that are winning this war across there, not the Iraqi government.

So what is it like? Describe it to me, Alan, on the front line. You’ve been in battle. What is it like?

It’s confusing; it’s dirty; it’s cold. Basically, at the minute, for example, it’s the winter, so things are a little bit quieter. It’s kinda— It’s like a little bit like World War I. Everybody’s just looking across at each other, but the Kurds are taking the initiative with taking… Well, Kobani was a massive, massive defeat, for example, for ISIS. That was pretty much Stalingrad for them. Mosul – the Kurds are taking area back right in there. Kirkuk’s quite a big battle, but they’ve lost a lot of prisoners that are probably gonna be beheaded by the ISIS. There’s battles just going on across there. It’s all just gonna start kicking off again very soon. But ISIS will do the same, but I think they’re gonna become more dangerous this year.

All right, well, just to finish, Alan, you’ve covered your face for this interview. Can you explain why?

Yeah. You’ll see a lot of Westerners show their faces, and there are sites online that openly identify Westerners. Well, ISIS have got bounties on our heads. They’d love nothing better to get their hands on us and use it in their propaganda videos. So, you know, I’ve got family back in the UK here. I’m not willing to openly identify myself with these idiots. I’ll let others do that. I’m not going to.

You say you’d rather die first, so this is a cause you’re prepared to kill for and be killed for?

Yes.

Listen to NBR's resident mid-East expert Nathan Smith discuss the war on terror and NZ's deployment of troops to Iraq on NBR Radio.