Greens, Labour will work together despite differences over ‘sugar hit’ budget

Labour and the Greens say they’re still committed to changing the government at this year’s election even though they held differing views on the government’s budget this week.

Speaking on TVNZ’s Q+A this morning, Greens co-leader James Shaw explained to Jessica Mutch that his party felt it had to support National’s budget this week.

“They’ve come way too late to the party, and they’re totally under delivering. But the package they introduced last week will lift about 35,000 to 50,000 children above the OECD poverty line. We would do it a lot differently, we would do it a lot faster, and we wouldn’t wait eight years of government before we introduced it,” Mr Shaw said.

Labour Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson (subbing for an AWOL Andrew Little) said that although his party voted against the budget, it didn’t alter the fact that Labour and the Greens would work together in the lead up to the September 23 election.

“A particular vote in parliament is what it is. Both parties have been clear on why they took their positions. But we are committed to changing the government,” he said.

Although New Zealand First voted to support the budget on Thursday night leader Winston Peters described the government’s budget as “disastrous”.

TRANSCRIPT: GRANT ROBERTSON AND JAMES SHAW Interviewed by JESSICA MUTCH

(Scroll down for interview with Winston Peters)

JESSICA      Grant Robertson and Green Party co-leader James Shaw. Thank you very much for being with us this morning.

GRANT        Morning, Jess.                 

JESSICA      I’ll start off by pronouncing your party right. That’d be a good sign.

GRANT        That’s okay.

JESSICA      I want to start off by asking you – you want to be finance minister in four months’ time. What kind of a budget would you deliver that’s different to what Steven Joyce delivered this week?

GRANT        Well, it would be focused on getting some solutions to the big problems that are facing New Zealand. This budget had almost nothing about fixing the housing crisis. Having an accommodation supplement increase is the classic ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.  We’ve got to be building thousands more affordable homes – that’s what Labour’s Kiwibuild plan’s about. We’ve got to be cracking down on the speculators. We’ve got to be getting social housing right; I didn’t see any of that in this budget. That would be core. Also in the health sector. You know, once again, the budget didn’t keep up for standing still, just for inflation and population increase, so we’ve got to get that right. And then in education you know, there was no vision in this budget for a world where technology is changing everything that we do, and we need our education system to be firing. Schools got a 1% increase in funding; that’s not even enough to pay their new power bill. So our focus is on solutions, not sugar hits. That’s what we’ll be doing in a budget that I put forward.

JESSICA      James, you also want to be part of the next budget that’s delivered. What would you be pushing to see happen?

JAMES         Well, some of the things that we were really disappointed about in this budget were that conservation funding was cut yet again. The fact that we’ve only got $4 million for climate change, which is less than the census; we’re so far off track on that front. And we would’ve designed a family support package that actually would have delivered for low income families, not tied to an income tax cut for high income earners.

JESSICA      But yet you voted for the budget.

JAMES         No, we didn’t vote for the budget. The budget debate starts next week. We voted for a package that includes Working For Families reforms and improvement to the accommodation supplement and the family tax credit, and that will have an effect on some people who are at the bottom there.

JESSICA      But you supported it in the House on Thursday.

JAMES         Yeah. But we’ve been beating National with a big stick for many, many years, right, and they’ve come way too late to the party, and they’re totally under delivering. But the package they introduced last week will lift about 35,000 to 50,000 children above the OECD poverty line. We would do it a lot differently, we would do it a lot faster, and we wouldn’t wait eight years of government before we introduced it. But given that, we felt we had to.

JESSICA      Why did you do that? That’s got to be annoying for Labour.

JAMES         Well, like I said, it was a line call. We came down on one side of the line, and Labour came down on the other. But we actually vote- This is the nature of MMP, right, is that different parties vote on different things all the time. Sometimes Labour votes with the government; vote against it. Sometimes it’s the other way round. On this one, given the opportunity to support a package that included improvements toWorking For Families, to the accommodation allowance, to the family tax credit, given that we’ve been campaigning on that, given that ending child poverty has been one of the highest priorities for the Green Party for many years, we felt we had to.

JESSICA      Grant, how frustrating was it for you?

GRANT        Oh, not frustrating at all. Our position on the legislation was very clear. It was about tax cuts where I get 20 times the benefit of the person who cleans my office. We’re not going to support that. We were very clear about that. And, you know, for us, even though there might have been some good in the Working For Families changes, they’re only about one-seventh of the government’s package. The tax cuts were five sevenths.

JESSICA      Has this distracted from you being able to get that message across by critiquing the budget? And has that been annoying?

GRANT        No. I don’t think it has distracted at all. I don’t think many New Zealanders are interested in the political tactics of voting in Parliament. What they’re interested in is whether or not this budget’s going to benefit them. And I think you know they’ll say, ‘Great, 20 bucks a week. That sounds good.’ But the New Zealanders that I talk to around the country also worry about the costs of going to the doctor; they also worry about the fact that their early childhood education centre’s having to charge them more fees. They’re the things people worry about, and I get the feeling that the sugar hit won’t last. It doesn’t actually get into anyone’s pockets for 40-odd weeks, and New Zealanders consistently want better health, better education, better housing, and that’s what we’re delivering.

JESSICA      But people do care about how you are going to work after the election, and this MOU was meant to demonstrate that. Why have that in this kind of situation if we’re not seeing it work?

GRANT        MOU is about changing the government, and we’re absolutely committed to changing the government to a government that actually has solutions and has a vision for a future with higher wage jobs where New Zealanders can live the lives that they dream about. That’s what we’re committed to. A particular vote in parliament is what it is. Both parties have been clear on why they took their positions. But we are committed to changing the government.

JESSICA      Why have the MOU if it’s not for people be able to see how you would work after–?

GRANT        I’ll give you an example. James and I produce a set of budget responsibility rules which give the framework that we’ll work in which gives New Zealanders the assurance that we’re going to be careful with our spending, but we’re not going to let people live in cars and garages you know. We’re going to make sure we do run sustainable surpluses once we’ve dealt with things like paying into the Super fund. So that’s the framework. Individual decisions within that, we’re separate parties. But there is an alternative government; we’ve been clear about that.

JAMES         Yeah, look, I mean the vast majority of voters want to know – are they voting for the status quo, or are they voting for change? And we want to be really clear with the voters that we’re the parties of change and not for the status quo. And so that’s what the election campaign is all about. We’re going to put out our respective stalls, and by the time the election rolls around, I think voters are going to be very clear what they’re going to get under the status quo versus what they’re going to get under a Labour-Green government.

JESSICA      Did you talk about your response to the budget beforehand? Did you talk about a strategy, or is that not how this works?

GRANT        Each party is individual. Each party takes its own positions. We’ve got an agreement to work together to change the government. We’ve got a framework, but there are a lot of individual decisions that get made, and from the Labour Party perspective, we’ve been very clear. This budget shouldn’t have been about giving me a tax cut. This budget should’ve been about making sure that we have a plan for the future, an economy that’s going to go ‘exciting jobs’ and improve our productivity. Kerry is absolutely right.  We have the fourth lowest labour productivity in the world. We need to be investing in getting capital to small businesses; nothing for small business in this budget. We need to be investing in the skills for the future of work, and we need to be getting our research and development spending up. That was silent in the budget, because Steven Joyce is not only that finance minister; he’s National’s campaign manager, and it’s a weak budget because of that.

JESSICA      In terms of the budget as a whole, there have been some commentators that have talked about it as Labour lite. How do you respond to that? Do you agree that perhaps he’s listening to some of your suggestions?

GRANT        Well, it’s certainly lite. I’ll give him that.

JESSICA      Does it go into your territory, though?

GRANT        Not particularly, because our territory is actually about getting the health, education and housing systems right, and it completely fails in that regard. Look, I think New Zealanders, when they look at this, I give them some credit. They know that that sugar hit of the little tax cut isn’t necessarily going to be the thing that’s going to improve their kids’ education or make sure that their neighbours are housed. They know that.

JESSICA      But it’s hard for people, when they think, ‘Ooh, actually, I’m going to be $100 better off under this. That’s got to matter for some people, doesn’t it?

GRANT        No, Jess, if you’re an Aucklander, your rent’s gone up by more than $100 a week.

JESSICA      But it’s hard to see past that sugar hit, isn’t it?

GRANT        I give New Zealanders a lot of credit here. And the message I get as I go around New Zealand – and it was in a survey last week – most New Zealanders actually realise the priorities that we’ve got. And while it sounds good and there might be an initial little, ‘Hey, that’s great,’ they’ll think about it, and they’ll see that isn’t the way forward for New Zealand.

JESSICA      What are your thoughts, James?

JAMES         No, I completely agree. We spent a lot of time on the road, and there is no appetite amongst people who are on high incomes for a tax cut. Everyone who’s there is sitting there thinking, ‘Okay, I’m feeling pretty good about my circumstances, but I’m deeply worried about the direction of the country. I’m really worried that we’re leaving a lot of people behind.’ And that’s pretty clear that that’s going to continue under this National Government. ‘Really, really worried about the state of our waterways in this country. Really worried about the housing crisis and the fact that that isn’t being addressed at all.’ And those are all things that we have a commitment to change. Those are the big, hard problems that Steven Joyce keeps kicking down for future governments to deal with, and we’ll be prepared to deal with them.

JESSICA      Do you think that this budget is going to make it easy for you to campaign over the next four months? Are there lots of things for you to hit?

GRANT        Absolutely. Absolutely. Where is the solution to the housing crisis in this budget?

JESSICA     They did do a pre-budget announcement on that with 34,000 houses.

GRANT        And you know what? In the budget, they’re going to deliver 1,200 homes, when there’s a thousand, tens of thousands shortage.

JESSICA      It is a bit unfair to say they didn’t address it, even if you don’t think it’s enough.

GRANT        It was completely inadequate. It doesn’t even get close to fixing it. And this is how embarrassed National were about that. On budget day, the biggest issue facing New Zealand, they barely spoke about it. They hid their announcement when Bill English was off in Japan. They’re embarrassed about the housing crisis, because they’ve perpetuated it. We’ve got the plan to start solving it.

JESSICA      Were you surprised at that as well, with the housing side of it?

JAMES         I was surprised that on budget day that they didn’t say a great deal about it. But Grant’s absolutely right – I mean, they won’t actually do what it takes to actually fix the really big, hard structural problems in the New Zealand economy. Housing is one. Climate change is another. Our waterways are another. The fact that we’re having to provide wage subsidies and rent subsidies to people who are on low incomes rather than deal with the fact that they’re actually on low incomes.

JESSICA      And do you think that sticks in Steven Joyce’s craw? Do you think that’s hard for him to swallow?

GRANT        Remember that John Key called Working For Families ‘Communism By Stealth.’

JESSICA      I know. I put that to him.

GRANT        And I think Steven Joyce, again, he’s here as the campaign manager, but I don’t think he’s got it right this time. I actually think that New Zealanders have seen too much of the homelessness crisis. They don’t like seeing their fellow New Zealanders living in cars and garages; they want that solved. And the absence of that plan leaves us a huge amount of room in this election campaign. And I actually think this budget will fizz. And I think New Zealanders will come back to the core of a good health system, schools that work for them and their kids for the future and getting that housing right.

JESSICA      So just your final appeal is for New Zealanders to look past that little personal benefit, that sugar hit, as you called it?

GRANT        Yeah. Look, it is a sugar hit, and it’s not a solution to the problems we’ve got. But even more than that, it’s not a vision for the future. It’s not a vision for, you know, a country where parents will look and say, ‘Look, there’s the future of my kids. There’s an education system that’s going to allow them to grasp the new technology, start their own business’ – none of that in this budget.

JESSICA      And I’m sure you’ll be hoping to deliver the next one next year. Thank you both very much for your time this morning. Really appreciate it.

JAMES         Thank you.

GRANT        Thanks.

TRANSCRIPT: WINSTON PETERS Interviewed by JESSICA MUTCH

JESSICA      Welcome back, and joining me now is Winston Peters, the leader of New Zealand First. I want to start off by asking you - the budget that was delivered this week, what would you have done differently?

WINSTON    A whole lot of things. I’d have faced up to the fact that New Zealanders need to hear the truth about our lack of productivity, our low wage structure, things like research and development are woeful. There’s no export strategy. In fact, there is a decline against GDP. There are probably, you know, 30 things. But to focus on things that really matter, tell them the truth of what mass immigration has cost. And the huge tension on infrastructure and all public expenditure, rather than saying stupidly, ‘It’s all good for you’ and somehow believe that if you repeat it enough times, it will all be regardless true. This was a breathtaking budget, really – breathtaking in its lack of reality and in rhetoric. But as for the substance, he ended up saying today what Muldoon said in 1972, ‘You can’t get anything off them’ - that’s the opposition parties – ‘cos I’ve spent it all.’ That’s how modern he is.

JESSICA      Did he have his campaigner’s hat on? Was that the problem? And hasn’t he delivered a budget that will be easy to campaign on for his MPs?

WINSTON    I’m glad you said that. The last time he was out on the campaign was in Northland, where he made countless infrastructural claims, none of which have been fulfilled – not the superhighway, not the cell-tower coverage, not one of the bridges, not one of anything’s been built, and he’s now doing it again. So with greatest respect to all of you, he is not going to be a successful campaign manager in 2017.

JESSICA      Is this a sugar-hit budget, as Labour and the Greens called it, and will people be able to see through that, do you think?

WINSTON    Well, look, why don’t we look at what’s wrong here? First of all, if you’re looking about the size of our economy as we should have with our resources, with research and development and smart tax policies to add value and compete with Australia, which is taking its corporate tax down to 25, we’re staying around static with no idea what they’re going to go now, it was a seriously bad budget. I’m not moaning about all the inducements and the lollies and things like that; their recognition of economic failure, that people aren’t earning enough.

JESSICA      We’re subsidising wages and rent, effectively, aren’t we?

WINSTON    That’s right. But, you know, people forget that was- When Rogernomics came in 1984, as it started to fail, that’s when support for families started going through the roof and dragging people into high debt, the consequences. But if they want decent wages; if things were affordable; if we didn’t have, for example, a housing crisis which extends to students at university today, you’re going to pay three times as much as your parents did for a house. It’s all these things that are disguised. Now, I do agree with the last two people on your programme, with respect to one thing – I see a lot of New Zealanders gravely concerned with what I call wealthy and middle class and comfortable, and they begin to see the ramifications for their children and grandchildren and are deeply disquietened. And then out in provincial regional New Zealand, they know one thing with this budget – there’s nothing for them at all.

JESSICA      So, if you were to become finance minister, what would be your first priority? Would it be around immigration and where you balance that?

WINSTON    The first thing is that you cannot- Which country in the world is going ahead with mass immigration on a level that we’ve got and mass immigration of low-skilled people? I’m not knocking these people; I can understand why they want to come to New Zealand. Half the world’s a hell hole. But most of them are economic refugees, and when you have that sort of structure where you’ve not got productivity as a consequence, cos you haven’t got the–

JESSICA      The government has made changes around that, though.

WINSTON    Let me finish. Look, Switzerland, Norway, these countries take top quality immigrants, and that’s what’s critical. We’re taking the wrong end of far too many, all of whom need a house. And guess what their solution is now to that crisis? ‘We’ll bring in some more to build houses.’ Now, frankly the National Party’s statement on housing was appalling. They are not going to the do the job; they’ve got no idea, unless they intend to claim to take half the parks in Auckland like Pt England and start building on that. So, all in all, I’m using my experience now, and I think it’s a disastrous budget for National, and there’s overtones of racism and–

JESSICA      In what way racism?

WINSTON    Well, they’ve got a special programme for Maori. The last outing and last two budgets for Maori housing, with all those millions, guess how many houses they built. 11 – at $2.8 million a year for each house. And not in Paritai Drive or Remuera; no, just somewhere around New Zealand. It’s this gross waste of what I call the Maori brown table in the name of Maori who are suffering all over this country.

JESSICA      The government has made changes to immigration, though. Obviously, it doesn’t go far enough, as far as you’re concerned. Do you think that that would change things dramatically?

WINSTON    I can’t believe you’re asking Winston Peters of New Zealand First that question.

JESSICA      Why not?

WINSTON    After all these years, the mornings that we have given to you, have come to fruition, and you’ve asked me that question? They’ve made countless changes. They made changes last October. They’ve made tweaks and changes every year for the last eight, nine years, and none of them were designed to have the effect of cutting back mass immigration, because this government’s economic policy – and sadly the last one as well, because Helen Clarke was bringing in 50,000 net, when the Australians were taking 80,000 net.

JESSICA      Now it’s 70,000.

WINSTON    Now 72,000 net, and no chance of turning that back with all these tweaks. Their whole economic premise is predicated on mass immigration. This is a drug they can’t get off. For the umpteenth time, for TV 1’s sake and this campaign that’s coming, just tell the people the truth.

JESSICA      What’s your number one message to people looking at this budget? What would you like to remind them of if they’re watching this morning?

WINSTON    I’d like to remind them of the countless pages and the rhetoric that’s behind something that you don’t get until 10 months’ time. In short, he’s standing there, saying, ‘You only get this if we win the election.’ And I think hundreds of thousands of people are going to be changing their vote on this for a whole lot of reasons. The big issues in this campaign that is coming are not in this budget.

JESSICA      Thank you very much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it.

WINSTON    Thank you.